FreeThought
Open Forum Friday: Can a group do nothing?
I know the title sounds strange but hear me out.
Let me start with a hypothetical scenario. Let’s say that there is a group loosely based around a set of common interests. Each individual member’s interests roughly overlap with each other. Each member focuses on one aspect more than the other and each member varies in their, uh, fervor. The problem is that for people to identify with the group they have to feel like the group represents them and when the group does or doesn’t do something they like, people can get crabby. It’s a common dilemma of any group.
The problem can be written very simply:
- Fact: Group A believes/does X
- Fact: Person B belongs to/identifies with Group A
- Perception: Person B believes/does X
A bigger problem is when Group A is not very narrowly-focused there can be a number of issues with identifying with the group. Ever find out that someone you believe to be a fairly devout Catholic is also Pro-Choice? I have. It irritates them that you would just assume they are Anti-Choice and I can’t figure out why you would still identify with a group that goes out of its way to stop a woman’s right to choose.
So enough hypotheticals, Let’s just pick a completely, random idea for a group to assemble around, like FreeThought. Most members are interested in science-y type things, church-state separation issues, not generally too big a fan of organized religions, etc. But some of their members are more interested in the science stuff, some find constitutional theory fascinating and religion seems to come into play a lot.
Most are atheists, or some such flavor, but each takes a different approach. Some are more vocal and look to the group as a platform for atheist activism. Some are far more laid back and really prefer the group to be more like a Book Club. Each type of participant is not comfortable with the other’s approach. One feeds the Angry Atheist stereotype and the other enables religious hijacking of society by not publicly self-identifying or speaking out.
We’ll call this group FreeThought Schvartz Vayne, but you have to say it with a Mike Myers Sprockets accent although you do not have to touch the monkey.
Anywho, what’s the group to do?
If they attach their name to an atheist activist event they risk alienating the more mellow fellows. If they keep their head low and stick with Life of Giordano Bruno presentations they riskalienating the group that wants to “do something”.
I have a suggestion. What if the group does nothing? It still has monthly meetings and has officers but it doesn’t actually attach it’s name to anything. This group officially does nothing. It’s the Sienfeld of FreeThought groups.
If 8 members of FSV want to write a letter to the editor then go for it, in fact, you can meet together during FSV meeting time. But it won’t be a letter to the editor from FSV, it’ll be from 8 individuals. If 12 members of FSV want to hear a presentation about whatever topic then they can plan it and announce it at a FSV meeting but it’s not an FSV presentation. There is no spokeshuman or no P.O. Box or even the need for a non-profit status because it doesn’t do anything.
What could possibly go wrong? Would the group just dissolve? Or separate into different factions? Or would the experiment be such a success because it probably makes everyone equally unhappy? Would FreeThought Schvartz Vayne get bigger than FreeThought Fort Wayne? Would that make their shvartz bigger than ours?
Open Forum Friday Ground Rules
- Anything goes, as long as you do not become verbally abusive, or start trolling. Getting off topic is one thing, but doing so to provoke an irrational or emotional response is another.
- We’ll provide a topic to begin with, but if you have something else to say, please say it. We’re all ears.
- Theists and Non-theists alike are welcome.
- If you’re trying to reply to someone, use the ol’ Twitter standard, and start your comment with an “@” in front of their username. If you are addressing the general public, no need.
- This blog is not a democracy. Please observe the comments policy when posting. I (and other FFW Admins) reserve the right to disemvowel and ban those who we deem are trolling.
Disclaimer: The views expressed by an individual contributor to this blog are not necessarily shared by all members of FreeThought Fort Wayne. That is what makes this organization so interesting. Commenters on the FreeThought Fort Wayne blog are expected to abide by our comment policy. About the author: Skeptigator is a mystery wrapped in an enigma and served on a bed of lettuce. Read more from this author
The Open Forum Friday: Can a group do nothing? by Skeptigator, unless otherwise expressly stated, is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.
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11 comments for “Open Forum Friday: Can a group do nothing?”
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FreeThought Schvartz Vayne sounds great! Where do I sign up? Oh, I get it- you sly dog you ;P
Sure, have been a few times I’ve winced internally as I hear or read something from a member, but I that seems inevitable. Besides, it’s worth it for the perks I get. It probably bothers a few others more than me.
This is no less of a problem for congregations (as your Catholic example points out). Churches lose people all of the time because of irreconcilable differences in belief. Why, there are over 34,000 different sects of Christianity alone. So much for the one true religion…
I can say I wouldn’t mind seeing the day where there are over 34,000 freethought groups, even if they are seperated by taste and sensibilities. Although it seems much more difficult to disagree over so much, we are doing a good job of arguing and disagreeing. But hey, I would probably be more concerned if we all robotically agreed to everything. At that point, resistence is futile! LOL
@Skep
What’s wrong, did you lose your faith in our awesome club? (-:
I think that the very nature of this Freethought Schvartz Vayne, a skeptic’s club (though not limited to just that), would mean that we would argue and debate with each other. A lot of people interpret the arguing and disagreement as meaning we have no commonality or cohesiveness. I, in fact, think that it makes us closer and stronger — we know precisely what each other believes, and we know that they arrived at it themselves. And since we all like to argue and nitpick, it seems natural that we would go at it with each other. We know we’re not going to drive each other away.
And when I say “we”, of course, I’m referring to the Freethought Schvartz Vayne people, whomever they may be.
Oh, and to answer your original question, I think that if FFW were this
wackyvacky Freethought Schvartz Vayne, and not attach our name to anything, we would stagnate and eventually fall apart. Even if it takes us forever to accomplish something because we need to get through the bickering, we all like to feel like we’re advocating for rational, reasonable thought. And this community needs all the rational, reasonable thought it can get. Projects, letters to the editor, committees, events, etc. is the best way to stay involved, to keep a dialog open, and honestly, is the best marketing tool we have.Wait… Everyone else got monkeys? I didn’t. I want a monkey too!
You know, that’s pretty much what I want the IPFW student group to be. Yes, like Andy W. says, there’s a danger of such a thing falling apart without enough structure, but I’ll try my damnedest to avoid that by keeping the weekly meetings genuinely enjoyable and nonlame. Interesting speakers, movies, field trips, honest discussions, food… Seems to work for the Bio and Anthro clubs. And it always helps to have a core group of reliable people who are friends outside of the group, which we’ve already got in the bag.
@neuralgourmet No one offered me a monkey either. I suppose only the FSV people get to touch monkeys.
However, if being able to speak like Dieter is a requirement, I’m not sure I could join anyway. My fake German is awful.
As with most groups, the majority of those within it and on it’s fringes are followers…or timid observers. These are the sideliners, the silent majority, the fence sitters, the…oh, you get the idea. Sure, they identify with the group and it’s ideals. They even identify with a few “wacky” ideas from some fringe members.
But to many of these followers, it matters less if the opinion is coming from the group or the individual. They’re just glad others with more spine than them are willing to take the hit and advocate for issues they don’t have the will to advocate themselves.
Take the FreeThought Fort Wayne group. I might generally embrace everything the group and it’s individual advocates represent. I won’t always agree with the approach, or the way it’s advocated or the method of delivery. Sure some outsiders will be offended. Sure some FreeThought members will be offended. I’m simply comforted knowing my rough and general positions are being given a voice, if not by me.
That’s democracy. That’s how a Republic becomes great: through the free, unfettered public exchange of ideas, opinions, and criticisms. For the benefit of our society, the FreeThought groups need fundamentalist zealots as much as the fundies need a FreeThought group. In America, I do not wish for either to disappear. For I can imagine an overly rationalistic society, devoid of empathy (examples: health care), to be as repugnant as a theocratic one.
I wish only for our institutions of learning to do a better job educating our public to recognize the vital importance of not just each groups existence, but their respective right to fairly air their opinion in the public domain.
This is where Western society is falling short. For it seems the trend is towards silencing uncomfortable and objectionable opinions. Laws against hate speech and laws against criticisms of Islam are recent troubling trends.
FreeThought organizations of all stripes are beneficial, not just for their anti-religion, anti-mysticism, or anti-theocracy positions, but because they are one of the few organizations which seems to grasp and promote this concept of unfettered, free-inquiry, public debate, and rational/critical thinking.
Feeling free to publicly (but diplomatically) criticize what we, as citizens, deem silly, obtuse, or irrelevant should be a fundamental tenant deeply understood at the very core of every individual of our western society and venerated as much as grandmas, apple pie and baseball. Our public schools do not promote this enough. Our churches promote the opposite.
Most religions keep indoctrinating generations of offspring diametrically opposed to critical thinking. This censorship-type, sacred-cow, dogma produced by such theocratic groups is deserving of ridicule regardless of its denominational source. And FreeThought/Skeptic type organizations are one of the few groups willing to challenge them. I applaud FreeThought groups of all stripes.
Keep up the excellent effort and stop worrying about petty group formalities. Your group is performing a crucial Republic service.
Yeah. What Sniddles said. That was extremely eloquent!
@Sniddles,
Very well said. I have one issue, which is something that was also brought up recently in our Unitarian thread. You said:
“For I can imagine an overly rationalistic society, devoid of empathy…”
I’m tired of the general misconception that religion or religious people are nicer or more sympathetic or emotional, etc.
This is simply not true. At least, I don’t believe emotions, love and compassion are lost or devalued the more rational one becomes. The same can be said for religion. There are some heartless religious people just as much as there are some heartless non-religious people. I don’t think the correlation is deserved in either case.
True, certain religious beliefs can harden one’s heart and close the mind, just as pure reason may cause one to think independently of concern for the feelings of others, but we all have emotions and feelings and use them.
I can at least speak for myself when I say that my emotions, intuitions, feelings and love play a central role in my life and help dictate how I direct my learning and my actions. If done well, rationality and emotions and feelings are complimentary and a powerful combination.
“Your group is performing a crucial Republic service”
Wow, I think we might have overshot a little but we will take a complement when we get them.
At first it was finding people who were liked minded to be around and we have moved boldly into activism.
It started with: simple forums, a simple blog, to a public access TV show, guest author presentations, a TV show, a now better web site with magazine layout, and now community service.
I don’t want to discount the groups social functions either. I love the game nights, going out to Henry’s and bunch of us had a blast seeing Star Trek together. I know I have made many friends for life already and hope to make many more.
This group is now both into activism and a social network with a support system. I would say both are very important. I hope reason and Republic isn’t dependent on us if so I am worried. Reason is bigger than us. Science is not our ideas but ideas reasoned by many many people from all over the world.
“Laws against hate speech and laws against criticisms of Islam are recent troubling trends.
Yeah that one scares me a lot. I took the opportunity to ask Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor about the UN’s blasphemy laws and she didn’t know anything about it. It was an honest answer but I guess the UN laws are off her radar.
Apathy could be a groups like ours downfall. These discussions keep the comments lively and it sure looks like we have no shortage of passionate people.
I guess I should respond to the meaning of the original post. We are not going to agree on everything. I couldn’t believe I heard members say I won’t participate anymore if we do dare to regulate and clean up the dialog on the blog. However, we are passionate and value expression. I am passionate too and want to use our expression effectively. I see the value of that and we had a 3 hour discussion with many people over it and had a vote on what we liked and didn’t. I don’t think it is perfect but hey that is democracy. We have to go through these things as we grow.
I think the Freethought schwarch vyeane of do nothingism is nothing more than friends hanging out and it would be fine for them but it is not for us. I of course am not against friends hanging out.
FreeThought Fort Wayne is bigger than that and we can at least contribute to the greater Fort Wayne discussion. The biggest thing one can do for skepticism now is come out of the closet with their doubts on religion and pseudoscience. FreeThought Fort Wayne is the public venue for that with a private support system.
Those are my thoughts anyway!
-Andy D
8-( *Sniffle* Only to be home and be apart of something greater then any one part. :,(
Wife Is out of the hospital now and I’m still working diligently to keep the food on the table and as many bills paid as possible. So much wish I could be a part of this wonderful group of dedicated thinking people. *Cheers guys* Some day I will.