Skeptigator
mightymjolnir
neuralgourmet
andyscathouse
dystressed
theodoersing
Andy Welfle
Battle Hymn of the Republicans
Posted by dystressed on July 7, 2008
I visited a megachurch today, it’s a long story.
The theme was celebrating America. There was more red white and blue bunting than a national political convention. This had me worried.
Patriotism has been coopted by the right, but if you take a skeptical look at the country, we have done some horrible things in the name of manifest destiny. This is more of a conversation starter than a well-thought-out essay, but I just wanted to get some ideas on what the group here feels about patriotism, jingoism, ’sea to shining sea’ and so forth.
Please leave your comments below.
July 7, 2008 at 3:02 am
We need to be careful here. The conservatives love to quote mine this type of post and accuse intellectuals of hating America.
I love this country and our freedoms, including our free speech. (Which is what this website is all about). You may not like what our country has done in the past and present with foreign policy or whatever, but that shouldn’t destroy your love of the wisdom of our founders. (Yes, they were very flawed). Zealous nationalism can be dangerous, but I don’t fall into that category and I think that is what you are talking about.
I hate how strict conservatives like Sean Hannity can steal what they call patriotism when it is nothing of the sort. He is trying to legistlate his pathoic idea of morality on everyone. In fact, they are trying to change the constitution or over power it with ideological judges. Susan Jacoby describes this PR hijacking of patriotism in “The Age of American Unreason.”
We have the best constitution in the world. A secular government is written in law. We need to defend freedom from the tyranny of the religious right.
I agree with fiscal conservatives on macro-economic issues such as mostly free markets and small government. I do think we need some basic regulation in medicine and health claims. And we should listen to scientists and teach actual science. This is good for us. Do you have any idea what is going to happen the economy if we do not have some limits and account for the total economic cost including pollution?
I am annoyed that I cannot vote the way of Jefferson, or Lincoln republican because the religious right has hijacked that vote and doesn’t give me a choice. I have to vote for a free country first.
July 7, 2008 at 7:08 am
Perhaps a little lesson from history will be good- “Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.” (Patrick Henry, 1775, The House of Burgess)
Scathouse- If by hijacking the Constitution you mean allowing freedom of the press as opposed to the Fairness Doctrine, a democrat-backed demand for equal time in a market that won’t buy it, I agree. If by hijacking the Constitution you mean allowing freedom of religion rather than demanding freedom from religion, I agree. If by hijacking the Constitution you mean allowing law-abiding people to choose to bare arms rather than creating a state in which only criminals will be able to bare arms, I agree.
dystressed- Obviously you have some real issues with the idea of “sea to shining sea” and defending this great land. Sure, it is not perfect- it is run by imperfect people. For instance, when elected officials kowtow to the demands of the fascists that have usurped a worthy environmental cause and prevented land-owners from the rightful use of land to protect a nest of snail-darters, you’re right, I am concerned. When I am forced through legislative action to pay confiscatory tax rates so you can have public healthcare rather than working to provide your own, as I do, you’re right, I am concerned.
I would ask both of you, what have you done today, this week, this month, or this year to make a difference in this great country? Have either of you done anything more that whine and complain on your blogs? Have you tried to educate yourself on the issues of the day, to write your representatives in congress, to donate to charity to relieve the suffering of those less fortunate than you? The way of the Republican party is self-determination and giving, while the liberal left would force giving for re-distribution to the poor through a failed system of welfare that has seen $1.5 trillion come and go, with little if any positive effect.
If you seek for the welfare state of the democrat/liberal left, you seek to enslave yourselves to a state that will determine everything you are, everything you get, everything you become, from the day you are born, till the day you die.
“Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” (ibid.)
http://imaknoyd.wordpress.com
July 7, 2008 at 7:14 am
[...] In Response to one dystressed… Posted on July 7, 2008 by imaknoyd I don’t get the whole trackback thing, or how to link someone else’s blog with mine, so I am posting a response I wrote to dystressed on the blog FreeThought Fort Wayne [...]
July 7, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Do you want the list alphabetical or chronological? Or is your question rhetorical?
You mean besides exercising our constitutionally-protected right to free speech and freedom of the press?
Every day
Yes and Souder is sick of hearing from me
The answers are yes and none of your freakin’ business.
I agree Republicans are perfect and have the perfect party and perfect politics. If only they could have controlled the Presidency and both house of the Congress for the majority of this century to bring forth a more perfect union.
Heavy on hyperbole and light on substance. Question for you? What will you be doing with your Social Security and Medicare/aid checks? Be careful how you answer because it will automatically mark you with sign of the beast and your soul will be forfeited to Satan.
July 7, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I just had to point out the Freudian slip by imaknoyd. He (she?) called Andyscathouse “Scathouse”, lol. If he has a lot of cats it might very well be a scat house, but I don’t know…
Andy, I understand the point you are trying to make with quote mining, but unless you are going to tip-toe over everything you say and think, you really shouldn’t care about offending those very kind of people who will stoop so low as to use peoples’ out of context words against them. I for one have more important concerns to worry about. You can’t stop someone hellbent on determined stupidity.
George Orwell put it the best: “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
That is how I feel when patriotism has been hijacked and devalued by conservative Christians in an attempt to appear holier than thou. If you just keep telling the truth and state the obvious, you will get through. The louder the pious scream at you, the more you’re getting through to them.
July 8, 2008 at 3:11 am
Theodoersing, No Freudian slip.
Skeptigator- First, I doubt Social Security will have anything left in it by the time I am old enough to be eligible. The fact is, I will likely have to follow the 1st Commandment of Jewish Wealth- Thou shalt never quit working.
Second, my post was not to you, but to the original post author and the first commentor. Obviously you had yet to post, so I could not possible address anything you said. However, as one of Shakespeare’s characters said “me thinks thou dost protest too much!”
Whining and complaining are protected free speech, but accomplish little. I am glad to know you write to Souder, keep it up. When you write to Souder, do you give solid suggestions for changing the things you are displeased with, or do you merely complain? BTW, this is rhetorical.
The world is full of whiners, complainers, and welfare cradle to gravers, people who are all take and no give, except lip. If you don’t fit this bill, bully for you. What we need more of, however, are people with ideas and solutions to the problems we face, and the willingness to stand up and stand out and strive to get things done. I had a boss who always said that if I came to him with a problem, I better have a solution. If not, don’t bother with complaining.
Perhaps the greatest issue we face today is economic downturn, mostly brought on by the increasing cost of fuel. Second to this is the lack of an energy plan that provides independence and security. The solution to both these problems is to bring our billions of oil dollars paid to foreign dictators home and invest them in our own oil infrastructure, employment, resources, and security.
“Drill and Mine US Oil–Buy and Refine US Oil!” (copyright 2008, kelly and dorthey knight, http://www.knoyd.com)
July 8, 2008 at 3:23 am
I didn’t mean to come off as anti US. imaknoid really took me to task.
My main problem is that hymns like God Bless America, Proud to Be an American, America the Beautiful, are extremely arrogant.
The best thing about the service at the megachurch was the honesty of the sermon. To the minister’s great credit, he pointed out that Jesus was not an American at all. He also juxtaposed traditional christian values of social justice against trickle down economics. It was a brilliant message, and one that is not given often enough.
To me, the hymns are beautiful pieces of music, but too many people take them for gospel, in both the literal and the figurative sense.
Americans throughout history have killed in the name of God, and that is the most disturbing aspect of this blind patriotism to me.
My thoughts are with the men and women in service to the country and to their families, who have given so willingly.
Even though we are a great nation, we have undoubtedly made mistakes. We are not entitled to be the rulers of the world.
My hope is that future generations will forgive us for our transgressions.
I am with Andyscathouse in that the brilliance of our secularized government and amendable constitution are the products of genius. In order for the nation to sustain itself, we must always be adamant in our skepticism. We cannot accept the veracity of a statement at face value, even when it is printed in a hymnal.
July 8, 2008 at 5:04 am
Here’s a proposed solution to many of our country’s ills: Cut the military budget by at least half. Why is it that so many people complain about money spent on social services yet seem oblivious to, or even approving of, the massive overspending on the military and related items? I mean, is it really necessary for our military budget to be higher than the military budgets of the rest of the world combined? To spend over half a trillion dollars on it annually? To have nearly a thousand bases in over 130 countries? We can have a strong military–I’m certainly not opposed to that–without spending this amount. I think it has more than a little to do with every Congressperson having at least one pet defense contractor doing business in their district.
Now imagine that we spent that money on energy conservation measures, or on developing non-polluting, renewable energy sources (instead of giving billions in tax breaks to the already hugely profitable oil, gas, and coal industries), or on health care for people who can’t afford it. Imagine that we made war-like efforts to do these positive actions instead of trying to impose our will on other nations and killing innocent civilians in the process.
It is so easy to blame people for not “working to provide their own” health care, but out in the real world there are a lot of people working very hard and finding it impossible to afford decent health care while raising a family, dealing with skyrocketing gas prices, car trouble, perhaps helping a child with college costs, etc. In case you haven’t checked or don’t associate with such people, many have jobs that don’t provide decent health insurance or any at all. And almost no one can afford to pay for a medical catastrophe if their insurance isn’t among the best. A friend of mine who recently died of brain cancer racked up bills of over $300, 000 in the first six months of his illness. Fortunately for him, his employer was his best friend and kept him on the payroll and on the company’s insurance policy when he really didn’t have to. What if he had been a self-employed craftsman, struggling to make his way in the early stages of building his own business? What if he had been an employee at Wal-Mart or some other retailer and hadn’t been there long enough to be eligible for their insurance benefits? What if he had a pre-existing condition that made it impossible to get insurance on his own and that made him unattractive to employers who didn’t want to take the risk? I know people in all of these categories. They are real people, decent people, and they have real needs. And not all of them have had the advantages that I’ve had or, perhaps, that you’ve had. I know people who put off having health problems taken care of because they couldn’t afford it. In one case I know of, a woman put off going to the doctor until it was too late. Turned out she had cancer and it was too far progressed to cure it. She became one of the 18,000 people (according to the American Medical Institute) who die every year because of inadequate health coverage.
And for your information, the amount of time I spend complaining like this (though please notice I did propose some partial solutions, like shrinking the military budget), pales in comparison to the many hours I have spent volunteering in my community in a variety of ways.
July 8, 2008 at 6:06 am
Ok I guess it is my turn to reply! A quick history lesson back at you, Imadroid. For every quote from Patrick Henry we can quote Jefferson, Madison, Franklin, Paine, Smith, Washington and others that mention enlightenment ideals of keeping government secular. Jefferson and Madison slapped Henry down in Virginia, which in turn led to the establishment clause…. They shot down the non-preferential favoring of all religions over non-religion, too.)
Sure, we “complain” (I choose “enlighten”) on James Dobson types and intelligent design morons for distorting science to promote a very dangerous god of the gaps theology. This isn’t good for science or religion.
You can also see in my earlier comments that I lean republican for macro-economic issues. I will beat on crazy left animal liberation nonsense, post-modernism, and any of the many pseudo sciences. I like science and think it represents the height of our species and will fight hard to protect it. I also think this country is going down the drain because of types like Dobson distorting science with ignorance. Science is important for the economy and innovation.
I think science education is far more important than the short-term religious right oil drilling that you just mentioned. The religious right is all about free markets when it comes to lower taxes. However, when traders raise oil prices due to supply, conservatives blame democrats and don’t let the market work. Unbelievable! This is what happens when supply has greater demand from India and China. (Even though this happened under Bush’s watch and war is not helping!) Oil companies were hurt bad last time in 1979 and 1983 so I am not sure companies would jump in hard especially with refiners already at capacity. This is nothing more than a political diversion and it won’t work. We know who is at fault. Look at how the gas tax relief rhetoric is not working for McCain or economists. Gas is still cheaper than Europe and once accounted for inflation it is still historically at a fair price. I don’t have a problem drilling if it could be done without hurting the environment but we will still have a problem and this is not the long-term solution our country needs to be investing in. I am all for nuclear and other alternatives. It is time to use the market for what it is best and count on American’s lead in science ingenuity and innovation. (Where’s your patriotism?) I don’t think solutions will come from Jerry Falwell’s school or intelligent design proponents.
By the way, how crazy are you? How old is the universe? How old is the planet?
OK let’s deal with your points, as you can already see I don’t fit a simple category:
#1) The fairness doctrine is crap and I don’t think anyone on this blog ever brought it up. This is free speech issue and it doesn’t stand a chance of making law. So WOWO will remain. I deplore groups like Fred Phelps. They will win their free speech appeal because they have a right to say what they want even if it is discussing and completely inappropriate. (Those guys are a clear example of religion poisoning the mind. What is even weirder about Fred is that he helped remove the Jim Crow laws. Homosexuals don’t get the same rights as blacks in that crazy land).
#2) Freedom of and from religion is neutral. The establishment clause protects all religions and all their infidels. I am starting to wonder if we just back down and let you guys legislate federal or state churches, that it will help my cause of removing superstition in the long run. That is what happened in Europe. The free market for religion here has a better “placebo” product than a government run religion.
Just stay out of the government. If you want to pass a law it needs to have a secular purpose and be applicable to everyone. That is it! No one is trying to legally close the church down. Sure, we will challenge the lack of logic or evidence, but only in words in the marketplace. No one on this blog has said we want to remove your rights to worship. Despite rhetoric on the conservative side, prayer is protected in public schools. It cannot be forced or teacher led. That is it. If a student wants to pray before lunch, have at it. This isn’t fascist. It is neutral. Science by definition is about natural causes so leave it alone. If you want the bible taught in a comparative religion, social studies or literature class that would be great with me. I am for knowledge. Bush might of benefited from this some religious history of Shites and Sunni. Oh and by the way, forcing someone by law to your religious idea of morality is fascist. What makes it worse is there is no evidence for any religion. Talk about arrogance!
#3) I own a glock so don’t mess with me or my gun. This isn’t my main issue but I don’t speak for any one else on this blog so I don’t know what the others here think on gun rights.
Have I done anything productive? Sure. It is wrong to categorize us a whiners. In fact, don’t underestimate us or our joy. This country is tired of neo-con thinking and if we can spring up in a conservative town in Indiana it can happen anywhere!
I produce and appear in a local television talk series trying to educate the public on these issues. That is no easy task. I mentioned a relevant book I recently read in my first comment so assuming I don’t research these subjects isn’t really fair and was plain wrong before you asked the question. I am not saying I know everything, but I try to read and stay on top of church/state and the evolution war issues.
Others here have written letters to reporters and congressmen. I haven’t yet.
Finally, your slippery slope fallacy of the welfare state is tiring. We may need to increase taxes slightly to “balance” the budget due to Bush’s overspending. We have too. The economy didn’t die under democratic control and you are being overdramatic. If Warren Buffet says he doesn’t pay enough taxes and his rate is less than his secretary’s maybe we should listen. Oh did I mention that some of the biggest philanthropists are non-theists such as Warren and Bill Gates? The religious do not have a monopoly on charity. In fact, my favorite secular charity is doctors without borders.
July 8, 2008 at 11:02 pm
dystressed, you misunderstand. I, too, honor the service men and women. I did not question your honor to them, but rather I questioned your personal willingness to defend the constitution and the United States. Your initial post and the subsequent seems to indicate to me that you personally deplore the idea of patriotism and manifest destiny. I would assume that you do not believe this country has a devine origin, one that says that it was established by God through men to be a great and prosperous nation. True, much evil has been done in this country because men are free to make choices, and too many make bad choices. But if we only look for the evil, we overlook the good.
On the other hand, is it arrogant for us to believe that we are a divinely inspired nation that time and again has used that manifest destiny to come to the rescue of nations like Poland, France, England, Germany, South Korea, and the list goes on?
Let me give you a down to earth example. My youngest son is 13, stands 6′2″ and weighs a little over 200 pounds. One day the subject of bullying came on the radio, and I asked him if he was a bully at school. He replied “No, I’m the one that bullies the bullies.” My oldest son was in fourth grade and got suspended for 3 days for fighting. I asked him to explain so I would know the kind of punishment I should enact, and he explained that a 6th grader was picking on a kindergartner, and he stepped in to “remove the threat.” I explained that while school doesn’t work that way, he had no beef with me, and that while he did have to stay home, he would not be punished by me.
Are either of my sons arrogant for standing up for the little guys against tyranny and despotism? I hope you say no, but if you say yes, enough said, I understand the case is hopeless. Your preference will be to allow the bullies of the world to overrun the little guys, the defenseless, while you merely run.
Finally, I would ask you to submit your ideal of what a perfect country would be, with the form of government, the ideal rights of the citizenry, the methods of punishment, and a foreign policy. What about taxation and distribution of wealth and responsibility, healthcare. Does your country stand back and watch as despots overrun their neighbors and tyrrants kill off their citizens by the hundreds of thousands, or do you take a stand?
July 9, 2008 at 12:37 am
imaknoyd, you really need to take a closer look at the history of our foreign policy. If you think that every time we have gotten involved in other countries it was to rescue the little guy, you are badly informed. I’m not saying it hasn’t ever happened. Obviously, WWII is an example of a war to defeat an evil, but there are so many times we have actually worked against democracy in order to install a dictator friendly to our business interests. Iran in ‘53 is an obvious example. Read Stephen Kinzer’s “All the Shah’s Men” to learn how we–along with the British–orchestrated a coup to overthrow a democratically elected prime minister because he was going to nationalize his country’s oil industry. We installed the Shah, a tyrant who tortured and killed opponents while we stood idly by. Chile in ‘73 was similar. Again, a democratically elected leader, Allende, was overthrown, largely because of our interference, and replaced with a dictator, Pinochet, who immediately began torturing, killing, and “disappearing” thousands of political opponents. Our response? We promptly recognized him as a legitimate leader and supported him. These are just two glaring examples. Read Zinn’s “People’s History” or Kinzer’s “Overthrow” to learn about many more. Am I anti-American for pointing out these examples? I submit that I am not. In fact, it is the duty of a citizen to be aware of and to criticize his or her country when it fails to live up to its ideals. How can we pressure our leaders to respect other countries’ elected governments if we pretend that every foreign adventure is altruistic on our part? I wish it were so, but history tells me it’s not.
July 10, 2008 at 1:01 pm
To agno,
You stopped just shy of the “punch line” with the history lesson about the Shah. During very poor economic times, the Shah continued to spend lavishly on memorials to Darius, sold rights to the country’s oil reserves for pennies on the dollar to the U.S. and the Brits which only filled his coffers for more lavish spending. The result of this policy within Iran led directly to the Revolution that put the very “bad guys” we’re having to deal with today.
In addition, during the 70’s and 80’s when Iran was becoming much more powerful (and friends with the Russians and not friendly to the US) under their new leadership the U.S. decides that the best way to keep Iran focused locally was to send some bureaucrat named Rumsfield to Iran’s neighbor Iraq to give their dictator Saddam Hussein weapons. Turns out that wasn’t such a good idea, who knew…
To imadroid,
The idea that criticism of America and it’s near-sighted and self-serving foreign-policy is far from patriotic. The idea that you must love your country, right or wrong, is not patriotic, it’s nationalistic. The idea that to be patriotic you must comply with Republican brands of nationalism is ideological.
While we’re on the subject, Manifest Destiny (aka “Indian Removal”), is a foriegn policy that has been used historically to justify our expansion westward within our own continent, territorialism in the carribean, pacific and south america, and has changed into some kind of “champion of democracy” for the rest of the world, please note champion of democracy is not absolute such as in the cases mentioned in agno’s comment above.
As for the divine origin of our country??? Please quote the verses of the Bible, and the Bible you used, to come to that conclusion.
As for your son, I’m not sure what to say about that. It sounds to me through your implicit, if not explicit, approval, you have just taught your kid that hitting is the first option available when you see a wrong that must be righted. That seems unfortunate.
July 11, 2008 at 6:59 pm
So your answer is “I’m going to not answer the question and instead throw out some kind of red herring which implies that you will be taking those checks to your bank and not Salvation Army.”
“Jewish Wealth”? Never heard that one before, smells funny though.
While not specifically directed at me,it was clearly meant as a tirade against anyone who dares speak out, I mean, whine, that they don’t like the hijacking of what it means to be a patriot. The way you closed your comment was also a rant against anyone who dare believe that the government should provide a social safety net for those less fortunate.
I have a problem with the hijacking and I think the government should provide social safety net
I think children should be able to eat and get a decent education and that is a positive effect. Just as an FYI, 2/3rds* of the evil parasites of society that are on the Welfare rolls are children. Do you also kick puppies in your spare time?
* Children, not women, blacks or latinos, are the largest group of people receiving public assistance. Less than 5 million of the 14 million public assistance recipients are adults, and 90 percent of those adults are women (U.S. Bureau of Census, 1995).